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So I have the following transfer function where Kvp=0.15, and Kvi=1. This is open loop gain. The bode plot is as follows:

enter image description here

enter image description here

For unity feedback system (loop gain equal to open loop gain) although at 0 dB gain the phase is not 180, the loop gain is still greater than 1 at lower frequencies where phase is -180. Shouldn't this lead to growing oscillations and instability? Everywhere I read, loop gain greater than or equal to 1 at phase 180 degree is considered very very bad. But if I write closed loop transfer function of following system, it has no RHP poles, it's stable by Routh-Hourwithz criteria. So how to conclude about the stability of a transfer function like this?

Is this consideration- "loop gain greater than or equal to 1 at phase 180 degree = very very bad." not always valid?

Edited (after answer given) to add the following page from Razavi's book. This is exactly my system. And according to the Bode plot I do have |H(jw)|>1 with phase -180. So shouldn't it oscillate?

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  • \$\begingroup\$ The instability criterion is gain exactly -1. More gain and phase shift at low frequency can be stable, though it's usually undesirable, as a reduction in gain (like at startup, or if we hit the rails) can reach the instability criterion. Many phase locked loops have 3rd order (270 degrees) or higher with lots of low frequency gain, and are stable if you take precautions to wind the phase shift back in should the gain drop (back to back diodes across the integrator capacitors is a good one) \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 15:27
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    \$\begingroup\$ As we can see, the phase response starts at -180deg. That means: The minus sign at the summing junction is already included in the loop gain expression. Therefore, the critical phase is another 180deg away from the starting phase shift (360deg=0 deg). Your sysytem has a very large phase margin . Note that the critical phase will be at -180deg only when the minus sign is NOT included. In this case, the phase response will start at 0 deg. Unfortunately, we have two defnitions for the loop gain (with/without the phase inversion at the summing junction) \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 15:30
  • \$\begingroup\$ @LvW in this case isnt the -180 coming from s^2 term in denominator. Ignore loop gain for now, just the transfer function has -180 degree phase at 0 frequency. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 15:45
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Pete W block dia is figure 15.1. The transfer function and bode plot I have shown is just for H(s). \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 20:30
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    \$\begingroup\$ @ needbrainscratched - the problem with Razavis definition of "loop gain" is: He has excluded the phase inversion at the summing node. This will not cause mis-interpretations when the system to be analyzed looks like the model shown. HOWEVER, in many cases the phase inversion (for negative feedback at low frequencies including DC) appears anywhere in the feedback loop (and NOT at the summing node). In this case (and especially for circuit simulation) the minus sign is automatically included in the loop gain expression - and the critical phase for stability analyses is at 360deg (resp. 0 deg) \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 2 at 9:20

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I ran your numbers with

$$H(s) = \frac{2.123\times 10^6 \times (0.15s +1)}{s^3+12566.37s^2}$$ and unity negative feedback.

A system is stable if its parts are stable and all of the poles in its transfer function have negative real parts.

If a system has simple, unity negative feedback and the loop transfer function is \$P(s)/Q(s)\$, then the closed loop transfer function is

$$F(s) = \frac{\frac{P(s)}{Q(s)}}{1+\frac{P(s)}{Q(s)}} = \frac{P(s)}{P(s)+Q(s)}$$

The poles of \$F(s)\$ are then just the zeros of \$P(s)+Q(s)\$.

Your loop transfer function, with \$K_{vp}=0.15\$, and \$K_{vi}=1\$

is

$$\frac{P(s)}{Q(s)}=\frac{2.123\times 10^6 \times (0.15s +1)}{s^3+12566.37s^2}$$

If I have done my math correctly, we thus want to find the roots of

$$P(s)+Q(s) = (2.123\times 10^6 \times (0.15s +1))+(s^3+12566.37s^2)$$ $$P(s)+Q(s) = s^3 + 12566.37s^2 + 318450s + 2123000$$

The zeros of the above expression turn out to be

  1. r = -12541
  2. r = -12.6896 - 2.87376 j
  3. r = -12.6896 + 2.87376 j

Since the all of the roots have real parts which are negative, the closed loop system is stable. This is the definitive test for stability when either the loop gain, or closed loop transfer function is known in the form of a rational function. The Nyquist method works, but to be accurate, one still needs to know the number of right-half plane zeros, and the number of encirclements of -1 in each direction. The Bode plot method works with simple systems, but the gain margin test requires looking at all frequencies where the phase is \$180^{\circ}\$ (or \$0^{\circ}\$, depending). So, to get a definitive answer, when you know the transfer function, calculate as I have done, and rely on that, rather than on gain margin.

The key word in the text is "may"

In summary, if a negative feedback circuit has a loop gain that satisfies two condictions $$|H(j\omega_0)| \ge 1$$ $$\angle H(j\omega_0) = 180^{\circ}$$ then the circuit may oscillate at \$\omega_0\$.

(emphasis added).

Note: Roots of a polynomial may be found using online calculators such as Wolfram Alpha. In the days of slide rules, finding roots of higher order polynomials was not trivial. This fact is a contributing factor to the spread of graphical methods for testing stability. Another obvious factor is that we often don't know an accurate representation of the transfer function as a rational function, but can obtain Bode plots through simulation and/or Vector Network Analyzers.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I will recheck my closed loop system. But how do we conclude from loop gain alone if it will be stable or not? Because it does have phase margin at cross over point. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 22:39
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    \$\begingroup\$ The denominator is s^3+12566.37s^2 not s. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 22:42
  • \$\begingroup\$ @needbrainscratched is the formula you have given in the question your loop gain, or your closed loop gain? Phase margin is useful, but it is not definitive. The definitive test is the location of the poles in the closed loop transfer function. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 22:42
  • \$\begingroup\$ @needbrainscratched OK, thank you. I will re-run. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 22:43
  • \$\begingroup\$ It's my open loop gain. Since I am considering unity gain feedback, it's also the loop gain. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 22:43
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Just a short and general comment to the subject under discussion in this thread:

  • Question: How is negative feedback defined (in contrast to positive feedback) ?

  • Answer: NEGATIVE LOOP GAIN.

  • Therefore, it seems to be logical (and to avoid misunderstandings/misinterpretations) to include all sign inversions within the complete feedback loop in the definition for the gain of the loop ("loop gain"). More than that, all classical methods for loop gain simulation (using programs for circuit analyses) consider, automatically, all sign inversions within the loop. Unfortunately, some authors (as Razavi) use another definition - and, as we can see in this thread, this can lead to severe misunderstandings and problems.

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After discussion, interpreting your question as:

How can a negative feedback loop be stable if the loop TF has 180deg phase and gain>1 for some frequency?

(i.e., a version of the Barkhausen criterion - which is intended for oscillation rather than stability)

In short, it can happen - and it doesn't necessarily mean instability. The concepts of Gain Margin and Phase Margin, associated with Bode plots, are sufficient to assess stability for minimum phase systems.

Counterexample to this interpretation of the Barkhausen criterion can be found here: https://web.mit.edu/klund/www/weblatex/node4.html

The example you chose has the nuance of poles at the origin. This makes it, strictly speaking, non-minimum-phase. But in systems of this pattern (ie double integrator plus other poles and zeros), the Bode Plot based GM/PM tests can be used without problems.

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    \$\begingroup\$ Comment to the linked paper: Sorry to say, but it seems that the author of this paper did not fully understand Barkhausens criteron for oscillation (by the way: it is NOT a stability criterion). This oscillation criterion gives a necessary condition for oscillation only - it is NOT a sufficient criterion. Hence, the transfer function given in the paper cannot serve as a "counterexample". The last sentence in the paper ("down with Barkhausen") is simply silly! \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 2 at 9:04
  • \$\begingroup\$ @LvW - yes 100%. Barkhausen is a requirement for oscillation. Despite the pompous claims in that mit link, I think its author does point out a common pattern of misunderstanding (I.e. |gain|>1 with phase=180 --> instability), and at least his refutation of that is nice and compact, and seems to me the root of the question asked by the OP here. Thinking more about it, the only way I can think of to address an explanation to the scenario of when and how to use Gain Margin is to resort to Nyquist, but that would seem to defeat the benefit PM/GM/Bode has of not too much math. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 2 at 13:32
  • \$\begingroup\$ Like for example, say you have the OL system as three low-frequency LHP poles, and you stabilize it with a double-lead compensator. Something like that seems to me well behaved and straightforward for Bode Plot analysis, and shouldn't require Nyquist analysis, yet it may produce, at low frequencies, what looks like a 180deg phase crossover with positive gain. How to explain why that's still ok? \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 2 at 13:48
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the loop gain is still greater than 1 at lower frequencies where phase is -180. Shouldn't this lead to growing oscillations and instability?

If this output was used for the feed back, you have an inverted signal i.e. nearly (+/-) 180° of phase shift so, it would be totally stable. This is classic negative feedback in action.

Everywhere I read, loop gain greater than or equal to 1 at phase 180 degree is considered very very bad.

Not if the signal is fed back without alteration (because it is naturally inverting). I mean, think about negative feedback of an op-amp in unity gain. The loop gain has a phase angle of (+/-) 180° at low frequencies but, does this cause the op-amp instability (no of course not).

Here's the problem with your edited image from the book: -

enter image description here

In the above you are assuming that negative feedback involves a junction which is actually a negator for the feedback signal when, in fact, if H(s) is naturally negative at DC (low frequencies) then this is fine for your transfer function: -

enter image description here

As I said above (and in comments) you do appear to think that the summing node where feedback is added should always have a negative sign on the feedback port <-- this is absolutely not the case, if the plant naturally inverts (and is stable at higher frequencies, which it is) then you don't need a negate sign on the summing node where feedback is inputted.

This reiterates what I said in comments below this answer: -

what extra 180 degrees are you talking about in the latter part of your comment?

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I don't mean the -180 due to negative feedback. I mean just the phase contribution from loop gain alone. I understand that an opamps open loop gain is positive, but it will lead to instability if it's phase adds another 180 degree in unity feedback. In my system, the 180 degree phase is coming from the two poles at DC. Wouldn't another 180 degree from feedback make it unstable? \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 15:49
  • \$\begingroup\$ The loop gain produces 180 degrees at low frequency so, if this is fed back it will be totally stable (unless there is something you are not revealing about the plant i.e. you haven't considered its contribution in the graph in your question) @needbrainscratched \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 15:52
  • \$\begingroup\$ And, @needbrainscratched what extra 180 degrees are you talking about in the latter part of your comment? Feedback doesn't imply another inversion unless you have not revealed something in your question. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 15:53
  • \$\begingroup\$ my plant has a negator in summing node. So -180 degree from my transfer function is getting added in an inverted manner. Total phase around loop must become 360, with gain>1. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 21:11
  • \$\begingroup\$ I think OP understands that part of it. (not my downvote tho!) \$\endgroup\$ Commented Nov 1 at 21:11

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