Timeline for Convincing a Client to Offer a RESTful Web Service instead of a SOAP Service?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
17 events
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| Apr 18, 2011 at 9:08 | comment | added | MikeSchinkel | @jwenting - So you too are not able to be respectful as request in the question either? Sigh. When did I say I was always right? Sorry, but nowhere in there did I say anything that meant that. What I said meant that as a consultant I'm not required to accept projects that I believe are not in my either mine or the client's best interest, even if the client believes otherwise. "Customer is always right" is a "philosophy", not a "truism" as you and some others seem to believe. | |
| Apr 18, 2011 at 8:15 | comment | added | jwenting | @Mike you ARE wrong in assuming you're always right and the customer is wrong. The customer has X, you'd better have darn good reasons to want them to adopt something else, and just "I like Y better, which is the only reason you have, doesn't cut it. | |
| Apr 16, 2011 at 4:52 | comment | added | MikeSchinkel | @Mike S - Thanks for being respectful. With WordPress plugins that are widely distributed to non-technical people to be run on a myriad of shared web hosts, anything that could cause a significant percentage of users to have trouble would be a support nightmare and make the client view us unfavorably. I try to avoid any technologies with a large potential support requirement, and calling SOAP from PHP definitely fits into that category. I've been quoting new business so if the prospective clients won't consider REST I won't take the job as believe it would be a mistake for all involved. | |
| Apr 16, 2011 at 4:46 | comment | added | MikeSchinkel | @Aaronaught - So you call me a jerk even though I requested specific help or at least for people to disagree respectfully? Clearly you don't know how to be respectful. BTW, your (a) and (b) strongly imply you've never been responsible for profitability. Here is some reading that might help if you're ever in that position: businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_44/b4056431.htm, inc.com/magazine/20020701/24373.html, sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2006/04/the_customer_is.html and ducttapemarketing.com/blog/2007/12/27/fire-10-of-your-customers | |
| Apr 16, 2011 at 4:31 | comment | added | MikeSchinkel | @Jacek Prucia - "The Customer is always right" is a philosophy of customer service and best practice for high transaction volume businesses, but it is not a truism as you imply. In the case of business where transactions are large, transaction volume is low, services are specialized, the demand for the services is high and the supply is low then "The Customer is always right" philosophy is simply not relevant, even if you want it to be. And your "If everyone abandons WordPress" is a red herring. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 16:12 | comment | added | Mike S | The fact of the matter is, as much as the customer is wrong, if you want to get paid, you do what they say. They are entitled to be wrong, and it is your job to let them figure that out for themselves. They will never trust your opinion more than they trust their own, and for a situation like this your better off biting the bullet and just charging them more money to do it using SOAP instead of REST. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 16:11 | comment | added | Aaronaught | @Mike: While I tend to dislike anti-answers such as this one, in this case the logic is totally sound. If you are "increasingly running into" people who want to do something, and are not only refusing to do it simply because you don't like it (as opposed to it actually being impossible or impractical), but actually also using it as a platform to evangelize, then (a) you're being a jerk, and (b) you are losing potential business, either directly or indirectly through goodwill. I've worked extensively, first-hand, with both SOAP and REST services and quite frankly think you're full of it. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 15:21 | comment | added | Rein Henrichs | @Jacek No, the customer is quite often wrong. You know who says "The customer is always right"? Customers. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 15:13 | comment | added | Jacek Prucia | @MikeSchinkel Customer is ALWAYS right. Just for the sake of argument assume, that people all over the world will abandon WordPress. Will you still be saying "no, I don't do Joomla"? | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 9:24 | comment | added | pdr | @MikeSchinkel - So now you're telling me that you reacted without even reading my answer. And yet I'm the troll. You'll forgive me if I leave you to your rantings. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 8:29 | comment | added | MikeSchinkel | @pdr - Just saw your reference to "fat dumb and happy" which it seems you misread. I wasn't calling the developers that, I was stating that Microsoft's developer tools are designed to lull into a sense of not needing to learn things their tools do for them, and I stated that when I was a Microsoft developer for ~15 years (thank you very much) And as for your assertion that I have a beef against Microsoft's dev-stack well you simply made another wrong assumption. I have an issue with SOAP, not with Microsoft's dev-stack; I'm suggesting the client code the RESTful service in ASP.NET MVC. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 8:21 | comment | added | MikeSchinkel | @pdr: I was looking for earnest help from those who have fought similar battles but hoped to avoid comments from trolls. Since you were not trying to offer the requested help, it would have been nice if you'd just not answered. As for "the client is entitled to be wrong and still get their way"; you are only half right. Yes they are entitled to be wrong and get their way but your implicit assertion that they are entitled to have me give them their way is plainly wrong (and if that wasn't your implicit assertion than your comments above would all be moot.) | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 8:07 | comment | added | MikeSchinkel | @Tim Post: Actually, the customer is not always right. If you go to McDonalds and ask for a Whopper they will tell you that is not what they serve. Just the same, when a client asks me to write a plugin for Joomla I decline. Similarly I will almost certainly decline a project that requires I embed a SOAP client into a WordPress plugin because I know that while I'm well known for my WordPress plugin skills I'm not willing to support SOAP. The decision maker usually doesn't know SOAP from Adam or REST from Eve but their developer who is unfamiliar with REST often drives their decision. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 8:06 | comment | added | pdr | @MikeSchinkel - If that's how you read my answer then it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. I never said you were wrong, I said that the client is entitled to be wrong and still get their own way. I did suggest that your argument is phrased in a way that comes off as one who is trying to start a fight, and your response here only backs that belief. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 8:00 | comment | added | MikeSchinkel | @pdr - Just as I feared, if I posted a question here someone here would feel the unstoppable urge to tell me now I'm wrong. Sigh. Smart business people know that they are better off not serving certain customers, and customers asking for something I know would send me down a rabbit hole are customers in my judgement are one that I'd be better off not serving. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 7:21 | comment | added | user131 | +1, the client is always right. It is good to point out potential pitfalls early on, such as "I've had really bad experiences using SOAP to do this" - but that's all you can do. | |
| Apr 15, 2011 at 7:16 | history | answered | pdr | CC BY-SA 3.0 |