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    totes agree, once you resign yourself to typing out the sql and mapping it rarely takes longer in the long run and you have total control Commented Mar 9, 2017 at 21:02
  • @Ewan To be fair, I think it take a bit of experience to know how to build the proper abstractions between the logic and the DB. ORMs can help devs get to something workable quickly. It's the idea that objects can be translated to tables and vice-versa which is where I think there are issues. It's true for a subset of data-models and object-models but not in general. Commented Mar 9, 2017 at 21:31
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    @JimmyJames It's true if all you need are very simple per table CRUD operations. Beyond that, a non-micro ORM is a curse. (And I personally find the idea of creating an object for every different set of columns coming back for a micro-ORM to be annoying, although it may be the lesser of annoying things in a statically typed language.) Commented Mar 10, 2017 at 0:35
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    @jpmc26 I want to side-step the static vs. dynamic quagmire but I think you are highlighting the kind of thing I am talking about. If all I want to do is pull some data, minimally transform it, and return is as JSON, for example, I don't really need to map to objects to accomplish this. The object has no real functionality. It acts as a map where data is stored momentarily. But I've seen ORMs used to solve that kind of problem. Often the answer is to generate the classes for those objects, but I think that's just highlights how unnecessary they are. Commented Mar 10, 2017 at 21:29
  • Somehow, I left out the thing I originally intended to say: The situation is not better with a brand new database that you're developing. It's only dependent on the kind of queries you need to write. For very simple per table CRUD, it can save a little time. But if you have queries that mix and match data from different tables or queries that are complex (complex grouping, CTEs, subqueries), anything non-micro is automatically much more trouble than it's worth. Even if you can get away with very simple CRUD at the beginning, you're betting that success won't lead to greater complexity. Commented Mar 10, 2017 at 21:34